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Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians

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Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« on: June 16, 2012, 02:09:44 PM »
Ok, so my math is not the best and I wondering If anyone can clear up if either of theses two following rewriting methods would produce more spun variations or would they be exactly the same:

1) Take 5 seed articles (in which the paragraphs are completely interchangeable, just like with Jon Leger's super spun article, except he goes with 10), then rewrite each sentence in all 5 of those seed articles 4 times...

2) or - take 5 seed articles and rewrite then all once at the paragraph level. Then take all 10 of those articles and rewrite them all at the sentence level twice.

I have a suspicion, but possibly not a founded one, that the second option is slightly more limited. What say you?  ;D

The main reason I ask this is because, it is easier to keep quality higher by rewriting sentences 2 times rather that pushing to get 4 sentence rewrites out.

 

Offline HoneyJo

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 03:31:18 PM »

Darren, My major in school was Accounting, and I was in that field for 'way too many years'!

However, I ain't even gonna try to figure this one out!

Read your P/M! ;)

HJ
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Offline andrewwilson

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 03:47:27 PM »
The number of combinations is going to be so high that you simply need not worry either way. Whichever enables you to get the best output is going to be much more important than the ultimate number of MILLIONS of unique articles that you can make.


Offline Meg

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 10:15:47 PM »
Ok, so my math is not the best and I wondering If anyone can clear up if either of theses two following rewriting methods would produce more spun variations or would they be exactly the same:

1) Take 5 seed articles (in which the paragraphs are completely interchangeable, just like with Jon Leger's super spun article, except he goes with 10), then rewrite each sentence in all 5 of those seed articles 4 times...

2) or - take 5 seed articles and rewrite then all once at the paragraph level. Then take all 10 of those articles and rewrite them all at the sentence level twice.

I have a suspicion, but possibly not a founded one, that the second option is slightly more limited. What say you?  ;D

The main reason I ask this is because, it is easier to keep quality higher by rewriting sentences 2 times rather that pushing to get 4 sentence rewrites out.

 

I think snm is our mathematician here.

He let us all know a long time ago that to find the number of unique articles from any piece of spinning, you multiply together the number of possible synonyms. I know you do not have word synonyms in the above, but the principle is the same. In order to do the maths, you would need to specify the number of paragraphs in each article and the number of sentences in each paragraph. For option 1, assume each of your 5 articles has 5 paragraphs and each paragraph has 5 sentences. Now you can use your "each sentence spun 4 times".

Let's try putting this into dummy spintax for option 1:

This is article/paragraph level
{paragraph 1|paragraph 2|paragraph 3|paragraph 4|paragraph 5} {paragraph 1a|paragraph 2a|paragraph 3a|paragraph 4a|paragraph 5a} {paragraph 1b|paragraph 2b|paragraph 3b|paragraph 4b|paragraph 5b} {paragraph 1c|paragraph 2c|paragraph 3c|paragraph 4c|paragraph 5c} {paragraph 1d|paragraph 2d|paragraph 3d|paragraph 4d|paragraph 5d}

You can see that at even just at paragraph level, we have 5 X 5X5 X5X5 possible unique variations = 3,125. After this, the sentences would be nested spinning. And each sentence variation would be a multiplier too.

Let's see if we can put this into dummy spintax for option 2 (I'm just thinking out loud here)
I'll just take one of these seed articles:
{paragraph 1|paragraph2} {paragraph 1a|paragraph2a} {paragraph 1b|paragraph2b} {paragraph 1c|paragraph2c} {paragraph 1d|paragraph2d}

I am going to assume here that the paragraphs in the other seed articles for option 2 are all interchangeable and that these seed paragraphs are numbered paragraph 20, paragraph 30, etc.

That gives us (without doing nested spinning):
{Paragraph 1| paragraph 2|paragraph 20|paragraph21|paragraph 30|paragraph 31|paragraph 40|paragraph41|paragraph 50|paragraph 51}

That is just the possibilities for the first paragraph in your option 2 articles and there are 10 "synonyms" in there. Assuming again that there were 5 paragraphs in your seed articles, then that gives us 10 X 10 X10 X10 X10 possibilities = 100,000 possibilities before you start spinning at sentence level.

That means option 2 has more variations, though I would have said (like you) that option 1 had more variations.

I would suggest checking out my logic here and seeing that I haven't made a fundamental error somewhere, which is more than likely!  ;D

Offline snm

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 07:43:10 AM »
Meg,

Thanks for the compliment. But I am a bit confused here.

Let me try it out.

The first option has 5 interchangeable pargraphs each with 5 versions of sentence synonyms so that there would be 25 sentence synonyms that should be equally likely for each of the set of sentences that make up the paragraphs and these could vary because they are paragraph rewrites.

Now for option 2 there are 5x2x3 sentence synonyms that are equally likely; paragraphs rewritten once and each of para variation rewritten twice. This gives a figure of 30 sentence variations.

As Andrew said both of these will give an astronomical number of versions and a very small difference in the uniqueness situation.

Unless you have a really large number of versions, it's not necessary to spin too much. Are we bothered whether a pair of articles is 85% unique or 95% unique? Things like that.

Beyond a level, the extra time spent on quality spinning doesn't have any additional payback.

Be that as it may, my gut feeling is that both of Darren's options are at 90% plus uniqueness levels. However, the second choice will give more random errors, meaning in reality the versions would get a bit skewed (that is not equally likely). This is because you need at least 3 variations to seriously reduce random errors and Darren has two versions at the paragraph level in this case.

My suggestion would be that if you can get 8 articles that have interchangeable paragraphs and rewrite each of them 2 times at paragraph level you will achieve more variation in the idea loads of the spun variations for less effort. That gives 24 variations at paragraph levels with 8 different ideas.

I did graduation with Math major in 1975 but it's all rusted now.

Hope this helps.

Regards
SNM

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 09:24:34 AM »
Quote
The number of combinations is going to be so high that you simply need not worry either way. Whichever enables you to get the best output is going to be much more important than the ultimate number of MILLIONS of unique articles that you can make.

Andrew - for the short answer that was definitely what I needed hear  ;D  I am pushing more and more for higher quality, so option 2 is definitely appealing to me.

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 09:33:33 AM »
Meg - thanks for the clear detailed response  ;D

I has to study your post for about 15 minutes before what you said completely sunk in, but now I have grasped it.

It is good to know that there is that much variation even at the paragraph level. 10 x 10 x 10 x10 x 10 creating a 100,000 variations, and that without sentence level spinning! The article I craft will be around 1000 words, with around 7 to 9 paragraphs I would estimate, so it goes up even more!!!

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 09:52:23 AM »
SNM - you graduated in math before I was even born, so even if you math is rusty, it is still a million times better than mine, especially considering that my last math test with a GCSE exam and I got a "C" grade.  ;D So, I haven't studied math since I was 16! Except for that which real life has thrown at me.

Thanks for pitching in - I was hoping you would  ;D

So, even with my "option 2" you think there will be massive amounts of variations, even if there is an element of "not equally likely". I guess the "not equally likely" factor (although I didn't have a terminology for it until now) is the reason I opened this thread, and asked about the difference between the two options I put forward. I was concerned that option two my be significantly less unique than option 1. However it appears that they are still both way up there!

Given that I will also add word/phrase level spinning to the mix (an average of 40% uniqueness per individual article before merging paragraphs and sentences), then I guess the uniqueness factor becomes astronomical?

So the article would look like this: 5 individual seed articles (in which the paragraphs are interchangeable), then those 5 article rewritten once each at the paragraph level. Then the sentences of all 10 of those articles will get rewritten 2 times (to create 3 sentence variations). The whole thing gets the word/phrase treatment also.

This article will be for sale  ;D And I want to reduce "sentence awkwardness" by not going above 3 sentence variations (1 original and two rewrites) so that the end results is very high quality readability with very high uniqueness levels.

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 10:21:35 PM »
Darren,

This is a very good idea. There are not too many people who make available 3 level spins for sale. In fact I haven't found any. That's why I had offered one such article for sale in the ESO section.

Wish you the very best.

High quality will always win.

Regards
SNM

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 01:38:37 AM »
Quote
Darren,

This is a very good idea. There are not too many people who make available 3 level spins for sale. In fact I haven't found any. That's why I had offered one such article for sale in the ESO section.

Wish you the very best.

High quality will always win.

Regards
SNM

SNM - Indeed, it is such a huge amount of work (and can be tedious), that I think there is plenty of room for the two of us  :D

The difficulty is finding people to spin to very high levels at the word/phrase level. I have not found anyone who is up to the standard i am looking for yet for this level. So I have to do that part myself!

I have my first spin close to completion, and am working on the website. About 2 weeks to launch date...

Cheers
Darren

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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 11:13:36 PM »
Quote
Darren,
This is a very good idea. There are not too many people who make available 3 level spins for sale. In fact I haven't found any. That's why I had offered one such article for sale in the ESO section.
Wish you the very best.
High quality will always win.RegardsSNM

SNM - Indeed, it is such a huge amount of work (and can be tedious), that I think there is plenty of room for the two of us  :D
The difficulty is finding people to spin to very high levels at the word/phrase level. I have not found anyone who is up to the standard i am looking for yet for this level. So I have to do that part myself!
I have my first spin close to completion, and am working on the website. About 2 weeks to launch date...Cheers Darren

Darren, I guarantee if anyone can be of help in any way, Shiv (SNM) can! You should consider contacting him on a personal basis!

His spinning ability and the way he has trained (and continues to train) his staff is beyond reproach!

He and I have had dealings before, as we are both in the writing field. I have 'NEVER' heard a bad word about him or his work!

HoneyJo ;)

'I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on my hard-drive somewhere!'
American Freelance Writer

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 08:45:16 AM »


Quote
Darren,
This is a very good idea. There are not too many people who make available 3 level spins for sale. In fact I haven't found any. That's why I had offered one such article for sale in the ESO section.
Wish you the very best.
High quality will always win.RegardsSNM

SNM - Indeed, it is such a huge amount of work (and can be tedious), that I think there is plenty of room for the two of us  :D
The difficulty is finding people to spin to very high levels at the word/phrase level. I have not found anyone who is up to the standard i am looking for yet for this level. So I have to do that part myself!
I have my first spin close to completion, and am working on the website. About 2 weeks to launch date...Cheers Darren

Darren, I guarantee if anyone can be of help in any way, Shiv (SNM) can! You should consider contacting him on a personal basis!

His spinning ability and the way he has trained (and continues to train) his staff is beyond reproach!

He and I have had dealings before, as we are both in the writing field. I have 'NEVER' heard a bad word about him or his work!

HoneyJo ;)



I just bought a license from SNM at his ESO here. I can see why there is never a bad word said about it him :-) It is a good quality deep spun article. I left a good review there :-)

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 08:56:53 AM »
On another note, I am on another math brain picking conquest - run for the hills everyone, especially SNM

Back to a little seriousness, I would like to know how to calculate this real world scenario for a spintax I have on hand. It is based on one seed article that is rewritten 4 times at the paragraph level to create a total of 5 paragraph variations; and all sentences are rewritten 4 times to create a total of 5 sentence variations.

The break down of the number of paragraphs and sentences in the seed articles are as such:

para 1 - sentences 5
para 2 - sentences 9
para 3 - sentences 5
para 4 - sentences 4
para 5 - sentences 7
para 6 - sentences 9
para 7 - sentences 5

So there are 7 paragraphs total, and 44 sentences total in the seed article. For ease of maths lets just say there are the same amount of sentences in all the other paragraph rewrites.

Now, the whole thing is spun to an average of 40% uniqueness at the word/phrase level. How do I even go about figuring all that out!!!???


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Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 10:34:48 AM »
On another note, I am on another math brain picking conquest - run for the hills everyone, especially SNM

Back to a little seriousness, I would like to know how to calculate this real world scenario for a spintax I have on hand. It is based on one seed article that is rewritten 4 times at the paragraph level to create a total of 5 paragraph variations; and all sentences are rewritten 4 times to create a total of 5 sentence variations.

The break down of the number of paragraphs and sentences in the seed articles are as such:

para 1 - sentences 5
para 2 - sentences 9
para 3 - sentences 5
para 4 - sentences 4
para 5 - sentences 7
para 6 - sentences 9
para 7 - sentences 5

So there are 7 paragraphs total, and 44 sentences total in the seed article. For ease of maths lets just say there are the same amount of sentences in all the other paragraph rewrites.

Now, the whole thing is spun to an average of 40% uniqueness at the word/phrase level. How do I even go about figuring all that out!!!???



OK, maybe I can make a start here, though I am no mathematician.

You have 1 seed article containing 7 paragraphs. Each paragraph has been spun four times, to provide a total of 5 variations for each paragraph of the article. As there are 7 paragraphs, then there are 5X5X5X5X5X5X5 = 5 to the power of 7 possible unique articles just at paragraph level. I think that makes 78,125 possible combinations, if I entered the correct numbers into the calculator.

I THINK you could just then use the number of sentences (44), rather than having to do each paragraph separately. It might make a small difference but the numbers are now going to be so enormous that it probably won't make much difference. So 44 to the power of 5 = 164,916,224.

I also THINK that you can now multiply 164,916,224 by 78,125 to produce the number of possible variations at sentence level. = 12,884,080,000,000 That number is so big, I am not even sure what to call it! And that is before you start spinning at word /phrase level.

Quite honestly, I am not sure if you multiply the paragraph spins by the sentence spins, because it is possible to think of an article as being made up just of 44 sentences (forgetting about any breaks into paragraphs) and so really, any 1 article produced from your sentence level spinning would be one of 164,916,224 possible unique variations. However, on the other hand, I know that you only used the same number of sentences as a way to make the calculations easier, so in some paragraphs, you might have 9 sentences, but in another variation of the paragraph, you might have 5 sentences or 11. So I think it might be correct to multiply the number of paragraphs variations by the number of sentence variations. Of course, when you produce the varied spins at paragraph level, you could also vary the number of paragraphs! That would introduce even more complexity.

I am just talking my way through this to try and make sense of it to myself. Not sure if it makes sense to you or to any real mathematicians on here!

Not even going to try to calculate at word/phrase level.

Re: Calling all Savvy Spinning Mathematicians
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 03:19:00 PM »
Thanks Meg and holy smokes,

I was expecting to get in the millions, but had no idea that the variations would run into these kinds of crazy figures, and that is without the word/phrase level! Such a document goes a veeeeeeeeeeery long way. I have privately requested the services of our favorite mathematician, to calculate the figures from a few different angles :-)